WARNING - Revit 2016 & Pointclouds insertion

Discuss all BIM related issues here.
Post Reply
jax120
I have made 30-40 posts
I have made 30-40 posts
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:33 am
9
Full Name: Andy Jackson
Company Details: Scan and Model + Project Surveyors
Company Position Title: Director + BIM Manager
Country: UK + Australia
Linkedin Profile: Yes

WARNING - Revit 2016 & Pointclouds insertion

Post by jax120 »

I have just updated an old project from Revit 2014 to Revit 2016, and when it came to loading the point cloud, I found it to be slightly off the model, I thought this was maybe an upgrade issue, but the same happens when I started a new project as well.

This only occurs when the project is based on large coordinates and the pointcloud is inserted 'by shared coordinates' (so pretty much all our projects then). On local coordinate projects it seems ok when brought in 'origin to origin'.

I thought there would be an Autodesk Update or hotfix for this issue but I can't seem to find one, which I find odd as this version was released a year ago.

Anyone else seen or commented on this issue before.

Andy J
Andy Jackson
Director
www.scanandmodel.co.uk
User avatar
Matt Young
Honorary Member
Honorary Member
Posts: 3929
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:03 pm
16
Full Name: Matt Young
Company Details: Baker Hicks
Company Position Title: CAD-BIM Lead
Country: UK
Linkedin Profile: No
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Re: WARNING - Revit 2016 & Pointclouds insertion

Post by Matt Young »

Revit is not really designed to work with large coordinates as the core coordinate system. I would always recommend working on a local system and adding shared coordinates at the last step. It sounds like you do this for some projects, but how exactly are you doing that, if you don't mind me asking. Are you saying that when switching to shared coordinates that the point cloud is off? On your local projects, was the scan data registered to a true local system and inserted in Revit 'origin to origin'? Then, did you add the shared coordinates as the last step?

Revit is was never designed with scan to BIM in mind in the first instance. It was designed to build models of buildings. The building is usually designed on a local grid. at some point in that design you would want to see where your building sits in the real world, hence shared coordinates.

As surveyors we always want to survey things in their real world position because that's how we work. But we must have a clearer understanding of the transformation between local and global when working with 3D models. And we need to do things in the right order. Not saying you did or did not, just trying to make things clear.

I think that given the fact other software can deal with large coordinates that it is high time Revit could do the same. It's an extremely expensive piece of software aimed at the construction industry. If it's inaccurate in some way, and it clearly is, then it's a little disappointing.
If you don't see that there is nothing, then you are kidding yourself.
72RPG
I have made 50-60 posts
I have made 50-60 posts
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:12 am
9
Full Name: Juraj Knotek
Company Details: BAM Contractors
Company Position Title: BIM Technician
Country: Ireland
Skype Name: knotek72
Linkedin Profile: Yes
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: WARNING - Revit 2016 & Pointclouds insertion

Post by 72RPG »

Hi Andy

this is Revit 2016 problem.
I had the same experience with Revit 2014 - 2016.
As Matt suggested - use local coordinates - if you have Cyclone it is easy (I am dealing with as built survey and Revit models -at least 12 buildings- and this is the best solution. Set local coordinate system in Cyclone to Match PBP in Revit) I really do not know, how people only with Recap are able to cope with this issue.
jax120
I have made 30-40 posts
I have made 30-40 posts
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:33 am
9
Full Name: Andy Jackson
Company Details: Scan and Model + Project Surveyors
Company Position Title: Director + BIM Manager
Country: UK + Australia
Linkedin Profile: Yes

Re: WARNING - Revit 2016 & Pointclouds insertion

Post by jax120 »

Your right about revit not being able to deal with large coordinates.

between the versions of 2006 to 2012. I used to drop all our survey data onto a local coordinate system as graphically it handles things better. dwgs and pointcloud. since 2014 and in conjunction of update 3. revit can handle pointcloud on large coordinates with no issues. dwgs are still a bit wobbly tho. but this means we dont have to mess about in dropping any coordinates and keeping all survey data coordinated.

we also give the client point cloud data as well so we can't give them a local pointcloud when a project is on real world coordinates.

So I think personally there is no real problem with working with real world coordinates these days. in revit that is

but back to the original problem. this was not an issue in 2014 or 2015 and looks like its just happening on 2016. don't know about 2017 yet.
Andy Jackson
Director
www.scanandmodel.co.uk
jax120
I have made 30-40 posts
I have made 30-40 posts
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:33 am
9
Full Name: Andy Jackson
Company Details: Scan and Model + Project Surveyors
Company Position Title: Director + BIM Manager
Country: UK + Australia
Linkedin Profile: Yes

Re: WARNING - Revit 2016 & Pointclouds insertion

Post by jax120 »

sorry forgot to mention. these are recap pointcloud files. we are not using cloudworx.
Andy Jackson
Director
www.scanandmodel.co.uk
User avatar
Matt Young
Honorary Member
Honorary Member
Posts: 3929
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:03 pm
16
Full Name: Matt Young
Company Details: Baker Hicks
Company Position Title: CAD-BIM Lead
Country: UK
Linkedin Profile: No
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Re: WARNING - Revit 2016 & Pointclouds insertion

Post by Matt Young »

jax120 wrote:we also give the client point cloud data as well so we can't give them a local point cloud when a project is on real world coordinates.
Actually you can provide a local point cloud if the shared coordinates in Revit are set up correctly. The fact that the data your putting in at large coordinates is "a bit wobbly" indicates that the problem is not solved at all. For me it's not a problem as I am fortunate enough to have Cyclone (not Cloudworx, although I have that as well) so that I can edit the coordinate system to something sensible before exporting data and converting it using Recap.
If you don't see that there is nothing, then you are kidding yourself.
jax120
I have made 30-40 posts
I have made 30-40 posts
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:33 am
9
Full Name: Andy Jackson
Company Details: Scan and Model + Project Surveyors
Company Position Title: Director + BIM Manager
Country: UK + Australia
Linkedin Profile: Yes

Re: WARNING - Revit 2016 & Pointclouds insertion

Post by jax120 »

I mean drawings become a bit wobbly. not the pointcloud. but thats insignicant these days as we dont tend to import drawings too much. and you can alway drop the drawing onto local coordinates for revit.

Yes we can always do local pointclouds on origin to origin, with a project set on large coordinates. but when supplying the cloud to our clients they may open in recap or anything else and ask why the coordinates soo different. I don't think I'm alone in this. I'm sure there's method to my madness.

Revit 2014 & 2015 can handle pointcloud on large coordinates with no problems.

and besides this is not a graphical issue anyway. this could be a error in a slight offset on insertion, or possibly a slight scaling issue.

either way this could be an issue if you just start working on it with 2016. or you supply just the pointcloud data to the client for any construction/as built verification.
Andy Jackson
Director
www.scanandmodel.co.uk
james.still
V.I.P Member
V.I.P Member
Posts: 183
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:18 pm
9
Full Name: James Still
Company Details: BIM Technical Manager
Company Position Title: BIM Technical Manager
Country: UK
Linkedin Profile: Yes
Location: UK
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: WARNING - Revit 2016 & Pointclouds insertion

Post by james.still »

i found the same problem in Revit 2015 too. If the ReCap file has large co-ordinates it becomes a problem and cannot be snapped to, and, it will not be in its true position. This is also the same for Revit 2017. I posted on here quite a while ago about it, sadly this has never been fixed and truncating the point cloud is the way forward at the moment.
72RPG
I have made 50-60 posts
I have made 50-60 posts
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:12 am
9
Full Name: Juraj Knotek
Company Details: BAM Contractors
Company Position Title: BIM Technician
Country: Ireland
Skype Name: knotek72
Linkedin Profile: Yes
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: WARNING - Revit 2016 & Pointclouds insertion

Post by 72RPG »

Hi Andy

I am with this problem several month.
We have projects in Revit 2014,15 and 16 and Naviswork as well.
I have to prepare 2 set of pointcloud in ReCap - one for Revit in Local (insert origin to origin)
and one in ITM for Naviswork.
We realized first time that is something wrong with Revit, when we linked a few Point clouds (we divided building into several zones to keep size of pointcloud in reasonable size) and we noticed shift between Pointcloud files.
If you want to link AutoCAD files in large Coordinates - there will be problem to - move AutoCAD to 0,0,0 and befor linking to Revit - explode.
Btw - there will not be hotfix for Revit 2016, I have not tried 2017 yet

Juraj
jax120
I have made 30-40 posts
I have made 30-40 posts
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:33 am
9
Full Name: Andy Jackson
Company Details: Scan and Model + Project Surveyors
Company Position Title: Director + BIM Manager
Country: UK + Australia
Linkedin Profile: Yes

Re: WARNING - Revit 2016 & Pointclouds insertion

Post by jax120 »

Ive never had a problem with 2014
handling pointcloud on large coordinates. I did this project with it. http://www.laserscanningforum.com/forum ... =55&t=8883
this was on large coordinates. also had a different true/project north set up for client. had many 5-10gb recap files at once. it was fine. couldn't say much on point snapping as I don't use it.

still mostly use 2014, and loaded 2015 and it seemed ok too. but the difference was noticeable in 2016.

I was thinking making survey data local just for revit was a thing of the past. but maybe not.
Andy Jackson
Director
www.scanandmodel.co.uk
Post Reply

Return to “Building Information Modeling [BIM]”