RTC360 Not really that fast

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daniel.jansson
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RTC360 Not really that fast

Post by daniel.jansson »

We have a pretty good and stable workflow with our RTC360 so I have been starting to optimize our price estimations for our projects to be more competitive. But when trying to do this my numbers just didn't add up so I started going through my calculations but couldn't find anything particularly wrong with it. So I started timing the scans, and on a low resolution scan I got this:

15 sec starting up
26 sec scanning
10 sec spinning back
5 sec "the last second"

So it is actually roughly 50-60 seconds, quite a big difference from 26 seconds! So it was no wonder my calculations didn't add up since each scan takes twice as long as specified. I haven't done this for images or the other resolutions yet, but the starting up sequence I think is always there, maybe spinning back isn't necessary when taking images or doing double scans but the last second usually is longer than 1 second at least. So I would expect a minimum of 20 seconds extra per scan.

Is this normal behavior for all RTC360s or is this something we should take to service?

If this is how it is supposed to be like, is this normal practice to specify such a lower number than it actually is? I mean it is not a couple of seconds or a 10-20% difference or something. It is sometimes more than twice as long as specified, so it isn't really a rounding error. If the start and stop sequence was 5 minutes would they still really claim each scan takes 26 seconds? If not then why do it at all? If Leica says a scan takes 26 seconds I would expect to when I have pressed play and waited for 26 seconds I would be able to start my new scan directly.
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Re: RTC360 Not really that fast

Post by landmeterbeuckx »

Don't know about rtc360 but this is with all scanners. The times are scanning times. All upfront and after isn't calculated.

With my tx5 scanning takes like 40 seconds more with each scan. With my Vz400i it's about 5 seconds.
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Re: RTC360 Not really that fast

Post by badam »

daniel.jansson wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:04 am We have a pretty good and stable workflow with our RTC360 so I have been starting to optimize our price estimations for our projects to be more competitive. But when trying to do this my numbers just didn't add up so I started going through my calculations but couldn't find anything particularly wrong with it. So I started timing the scans, and on a low resolution scan I got this:

15 sec starting up
26 sec scanning
10 sec spinning back
5 sec "the last second"

So it is actually roughly 50-60 seconds, quite a big difference from 26 seconds! So it was no wonder my calculations didn't add up since each scan takes twice as long as specified. I haven't done this for images or the other resolutions yet, but the starting up sequence I think is always there, maybe spinning back isn't necessary when taking images or doing double scans but the last second usually is longer than 1 second at least. So I would expect a minimum of 20 seconds extra per scan.

Is this normal behavior for all RTC360s or is this something we should take to service?

If this is how it is supposed to be like, is this normal practice to specify such a lower number than it actually is? I mean it is not a couple of seconds or a 10-20% difference or something. It is sometimes more than twice as long as specified, so it isn't really a rounding error. If the start and stop sequence was 5 minutes would they still really claim each scan takes 26 seconds? If not then why do it at all? If Leica says a scan takes 26 seconds I would expect to when I have pressed play and waited for 26 seconds I would be able to start my new scan directly.
Just don't forget the setup change time, it is way much percentage wise. then a "slower" scanner. It is usually half of the field time is spent just move to another location...

And don't forget what it takes to import the scans, but these should be done during out of work hours.
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Re: RTC360 Not really that fast

Post by daniel.jansson »

landmeterbeuckx wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:11 am Don't know about rtc360 but this is with all scanners. The times are scanning times. All upfront and after isn't calculated.

With my tx5 scanning takes like 40 seconds more with each scan. With my Vz400i it's about 5 seconds.
I guess it is not only Leica then. But why even put the timer there since it doesn't even tell you anything? Does someone know if in the new firmware this accuracy mode add anything to the timer? Why add this time to the timer and not other start up sequences in that case?
badam wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:31 am Just don't forget the setup change time, it is way much percentage wise. then a "slower" scanner. It is usually half of the field time is spent just move to another location...

And don't forget what it takes to import the scans, but these should be done during out of work hours.
Of course there are other stuff in a project that does not involve the scanner scanning that has it's own difficulties estimating. Moving the scanner and importing we have pretty good metrics already on so this isn't really an issue for us at least. This is just one thing that messed up my calculations since I thought I had the metric needed.

But maybe this is just a case of accepting that scanners take longer than specified to do a scan and look up the actual time if that is important. Don't get me wrong it is still fast, but why not just be upfront with how it is? This just adds frustration when you notice it.
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Re: RTC360 Not really that fast

Post by VXGrid »

daniel.jansson wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:20 am
landmeterbeuckx wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:11 am Don't know about rtc360 but this is with all scanners. The times are scanning times. All upfront and after isn't calculated.

With my tx5 scanning takes like 40 seconds more with each scan. With my Vz400i it's about 5 seconds.
I guess it is not only Leica then. But why even put the timer there since it doesn't even tell you anything? Does someone know if in the new firmware this accuracy mode add anything to the timer? Why add this time to the timer and not other start up sequences in that case?
badam wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:31 am Just don't forget the setup change time, it is way much percentage wise. then a "slower" scanner. It is usually half of the field time is spent just move to another location...

And don't forget what it takes to import the scans, but these should be done during out of work hours.
Of course there are other stuff in a project that does not involve the scanner scanning that has it's own difficulties estimating. Moving the scanner and importing we have pretty good metrics already on so this isn't really an issue for us at least. This is just one thing that messed up my calculations since I thought I had the metric needed.

But maybe this is just a case of accepting that scanners take longer than specified to do a scan and look up the actual time if that is important. Don't get me wrong it is still fast, but why not just be upfront with how it is? This just adds frustration when you notice it.
Mh but wouldn't it be great to have the total numbers?
I mean sure the time for capturing points and the time needed from start to finish can be totally different, especially if more things are measured/taken like GPS, Barometer, Inclinometer, Images, Compass, initializing, data saving, ...
But at least there should be numbers for these different steps, or a cumulated sum?

Now I'd love to hear if the different manufacturers are all doing this, only providing the point capturing time, or if there are manufacturers providing the start -> stop time as well. This would relativate a lot of things....
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Re: RTC360 Not really that fast

Post by landmeterbeuckx »

VXGrid wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:23 pm
daniel.jansson wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:20 am
landmeterbeuckx wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:11 am Don't know about rtc360 but this is with all scanners. The times are scanning times. All upfront and after isn't calculated.

With my tx5 scanning takes like 40 seconds more with each scan. With my Vz400i it's about 5 seconds.
I guess it is not only Leica then. But why even put the timer there since it doesn't even tell you anything? Does someone know if in the new firmware this accuracy mode add anything to the timer? Why add this time to the timer and not other start up sequences in that case?
badam wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:31 am Just don't forget the setup change time, it is way much percentage wise. then a "slower" scanner. It is usually half of the field time is spent just move to another location...

And don't forget what it takes to import the scans, but these should be done during out of work hours.
Of course there are other stuff in a project that does not involve the scanner scanning that has it's own difficulties estimating. Moving the scanner and importing we have pretty good metrics already on so this isn't really an issue for us at least. This is just one thing that messed up my calculations since I thought I had the metric needed.

But maybe this is just a case of accepting that scanners take longer than specified to do a scan and look up the actual time if that is important. Don't get me wrong it is still fast, but why not just be upfront with how it is? This just adds frustration when you notice it.
Mh but wouldn't it be great to have the total numbers?
I mean sure the time for capturing points and the time needed from start to finish can be totally different, especially if more things are measured/taken like GPS, Barometer, Inclinometer, Images, Compass, initializing, data saving, ...
But at least there should be numbers for these different steps, or a cumulated sum?

Now I'd love to hear if the different manufacturers are all doing this, only providing the point capturing time, or if there are manufacturers providing the start -> stop time as well. This would relativate a lot of things....
I've made a quick video with my vz400i with actual times between pushing the button and finishing for a 20 sec and 30 sec scan.
Complete times are 36 sec and 43 sec.
https://youtu.be/Ln83wJRQqqE

So 15 seconds must be added per position. But nothing else like levelling as this is not required for this instrument. Rock and roll baby ;-)
Last edited by landmeterbeuckx on Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RTC360 Not really that fast

Post by VXGrid »

landmeterbeuckx wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:04 pm I've made a quick video with my vz400i with actual times between pushing the button and finishing for a 20 sec and 30 sec scan.
Complete times are 36 sec and 43 sec.
https://youtu.be/Ln83wJRQqqE

@Lieven, your video is private :(
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Re: RTC360 Not really that fast

Post by landmeterbeuckx »

VXGrid wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:05 pm
landmeterbeuckx wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:04 pm I've made a quick video with my vz400i with actual times between pushing the button and finishing for a 20 sec and 30 sec scan.
Complete times are 36 sec and 43 sec.
https://youtu.be/Ln83wJRQqqE

@Lieven, your video is private :(
Ajusted
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Re: RTC360 Not really that fast

Post by jedfrechette »

I'm pretty sure all Faro scanners take longer than the "spec sheet time" too. Honestly, I haven't paid to much attention though. For these kinds of estimating purposes I've always just bundled together scan time and setup time, i.e. in a particular type of environment how many scans can an experienced operator do in 1 hour. Usually that number comes from experience on previous similar projects rather than trying to estimate it from first principles.
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Re: RTC360 Not really that fast

Post by Leandre Robitaille »

jedfrechette wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:00 pm I'm pretty sure all Faro scanners take longer than the "spec sheet time" too. Honestly, I haven't paid to much attention though. For these kinds of estimating purposes I've always just bundled together scan time and setup time, i.e. in a particular type of environment how many scans can an experienced operator do in 1 hour. Usually that number comes from experience on previous similar projects rather than trying to estimate it from first principles.
Actually faro are about 15sec faster than spec because it takes into account its doing a compass check. It only does a compass check on first scan, all other are 15 sec faster than advertised. But dont get me wrong its still a moderate speed scanner. Just time your scanner right after pressing the button and you will see a 4min10 scan will take about 3min50
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