FARO ACQUIRES GEOSLAM

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Re: FARO ACQUIRES GEOSLAM

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will SALM processing be implemented into Scene?
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Re: FARO ACQUIRES GEOSLAM

Post by smacl »

jcoco3 wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:25 pm
SLAM seems like mostly a software problem rather than a hardware problem so I'm wondering how well a product like Geoslam will do at a company like Faro that seems to be mostly "hardware first".
In an optimistic point of view, perhaps that is why they acquired GEOSLAM?

The SurphSlam system I wrote about a million years ago, was quite simply amazing in terms of data quality and robustness and flow of mapping. It was a GEOSLAM/CSIRO+Surphaser development, so I don't know how much will translate to Faro. Even today I feel like a SurpSlam would still be a killer device for many types of work. I never got the chance to use the Faro Swift or the newer NavVis system, but I did find the GEOSLAM Revo to be one of the most liberating scanning experiences ever. It was like going on a fun hike, but with a scanner that wasn't boring to use. Did not like the first NavVis system at all with all the stopping to take pictures, but don't know if that has changed with new the system because I have not kept up with it.

I am interested to see what kind of hardware and software will come of this, but also if the cultural mix corrects some of the noted deficiencies.

Reference:
viewtopic.php?t=10253
There are quite a few components that contribute to the quality of a SLAM derived point cloud. For the NavVis stuff the most obvious one is the excellent post processing software, but also the twin scan heads, four cameras, IMU, and more stable platform. To my mind it is much closer to the Leica Pegasus backpack in how it works and also the quality of the final result. The Pegasus backpack is also twin scanner, multiple cameras and has a profiling laser with excellent intensity results, but then also costs a whole lot more than the NavVis and is a bit dated at this point. I don't think currently available handheld SLAM devices are comparable and Faro would need to do quite a lot to have a comparable product.
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Re: FARO ACQUIRES GEOSLAM

Post by jcoco3 »

Sounds s reasonable. I was just never that impressed with the lidar ranging noise with the first NavVis system and figured I had been spolied by the quality I experienced with the Surphslam...after that nothing less was acceptable. I will admit that I have not tried or kept up well with the newer systems like the NavVis or Leica slam backpack systems. I honestly just keep assuming that less expensive off the shelf sensors like the hokuyo an velodyne sensors will always have more noise than a terrestrial scanner modded to work in a slam mode with the other components that make up that system. BLK2GO doesn't count because that was too noisy too.
In the last few years I have used aerial systems that utililize the Vux-1 an the Hesai sensors and I still find they can't touch the cleaniness of the Faro or Surphaser scanners...nor do I expect them to. They are lightweight made to be efficent in the air, so sacrifices are made. Even so they are both still kind-of amazing for what they are.

I will be patient keep watching and see if they come up with anything more interesting than what is already out there, but I agree that it will not be easy. It would have to be just as accurate as a terrestrial system, but lighter than any slam based system out there to meet my expectations. I would probably settle for another cart if the price was right. At this point its nothing I would pay a premium for. Wow, I can't believe I just wrote that, man I am spoiled! Lol :lol: Guess I just want to be wowed again.
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Re: FARO ACQUIRES GEOSLAM

Post by smacl »

jcoco3 wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 7:39 pmI honestly just keep assuming that less expensive off the shelf sensors like the hokuyo an velodyne sensors will always have more noise than a terrestrial scanner modded to work in a slam mode with the other components that make up that system. BLK2GO doesn't count because that was too noisy too.
I suspect the NavVis produces a clean result through very clever data analysis and noise reduction techniques across two complimentary scan heads, I think the raw data is as noisy as many other systems. LIDAR has a ton of redundant data, doubly so if you have two sensors, and that redundancy can be effectively exploited to eliminate many kinds of noise. Overlapping HDR images can also add further redundancy. I don't doubt you could apply similar techniques to the BLK2Go and other units. Unfortunately, the point cloud formats we use commonly use today for SLAM typically don't include the trajectory, precise time and IMU data that can also be highly beneficial here. Many of the manufacturers are also reluctant to make this information available to 3rd parties.
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Re: FARO ACQUIRES GEOSLAM

Post by landmeterbeuckx »

smacl wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:04 pm
jcoco3 wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 7:39 pmI honestly just keep assuming that less expensive off the shelf sensors like the hokuyo an velodyne sensors will always have more noise than a terrestrial scanner modded to work in a slam mode with the other components that make up that system. BLK2GO doesn't count because that was too noisy too.
I suspect the NavVis produces a clean result through very clever data analysis and noise reduction techniques across two complimentary scan heads, I think the raw data is as noisy as many other systems. LIDAR has a ton of redundant data, doubly so if you have two sensors, and that redundancy can be effectively exploited to eliminate many kinds of noise. Overlapping HDR images can also add further redundancy. I don't doubt you could apply similar techniques to the BLK2Go and other units. Unfortunately, the point cloud formats we use commonly use today for SLAM typically don't include the trajectory, precise time and IMU data that can also be highly beneficial here. Many of the manufacturers are also reluctant to make this information available to 3rd parties.
Allthough i follow this slam evolution, i'm gonna stick with static scanning as i already have all the gear and as a one man shop i cannot justify buying yet another scanner to sit idle most off the time because i'm drawing or processing data.

I often stood on site wishing i had a slam unit but when back in the office i always reflect on the fact i'm also pretty fast with my Riegl so....
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Re: FARO ACQUIRES GEOSLAM

Post by jcoco3 »

Yep, static seems like it might always be the king of accuracy, so for many projects it could be the best choice. My issue with SLAM or any lower accuracy system is that if saves me time in the field, but adds to the time for extraction and 3d modeling due to increased time in intereptation then its just not worth it. That being said there are always projects that can be done just fine with lower accuracy faster systems. Just still need both to get all the jobs done.

BTW if anyone has never used a slam system before and is only using static scanning, please take the time to try SLAM. Its can be a liberating and enjoyable experience.

Also, I would imagine SLAM will increase the productivity of the robotic Spot systems, mostly since they would not need to stop to take static sessions but also as they would have additional high resolution live data to use for navigation.
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Re: FARO ACQUIRES GEOSLAM

Post by dhirota »

I posted this thread about a week ago, to see what discussion this might lead to about acquisitions in our industry. After about 1,000 views, so far no one has even mentioned the excellent LSF thread 9 months ago by Danilo Mammarella

viewtopic.php?t=18624&hilit=geoslam+rtk

I am still waiting to hear about precision, accuracy and target controls and how they relate to SLAM and whether this acquisition will accomplish these important parameters in our industry.
landmeterbeuckx wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:23 pm
smacl wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:04 pm
jcoco3 wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 7:39 pmI honestly just keep assuming that less expensive off the shelf sensors like the hokuyo an velodyne sensors will always have more noise than a terrestrial scanner modded to work in a slam mode with the other components that make up that system. BLK2GO doesn't count because that was too noisy too.
I suspect the NavVis produces a clean result through very clever data analysis and noise reduction techniques across two complimentary scan heads, I think the raw data is as noisy as many other systems.

LIDAR has a ton of redundant data, doubly so if you have two sensors, and that redundancy can be effectively exploited to eliminate many kinds of noise. Overlapping HDR images can also add further redundancy.

I don't doubt you could apply similar techniques to the BLK2Go and other units. Unfortunately, the point cloud formats we use commonly use today for SLAM typically don't include the trajectory, precise time and IMU data that can also be highly beneficial here. Many of the manufacturers are also reluctant to make this information available to 3rd parties.
Allthough i follow this slam evolution, i'm gonna stick with static scanning as i already have all the gear and as a one man shop i cannot justify buying yet another scanner to sit idle most off the time because i'm drawing or processing data.

I often stood on site wishing i had a slam unit but when back in the office i always reflect on the fact i'm also pretty fast with my Riegl so....
We have a NavVis M6 and VLX and the raw data is not as clean as the finished point cloud.

NavVis VLX uses the 2X Velodyne sensors and the four great cameras to produce the best HDR panorama images I have seen anywhere. Their ability to process this basic data along with other sensors that most people that do not own/use a NavVis system are not aware are included in their database and they have ability to improve the quality of their final point clouds that people are talking about in this thread.

Lieven:

You must have missed my last thread of the ThreadRipper Pro 3995WX since it was messed up in the initial submittal since only 27 viewers saw it discussing the merging of NavVis VLX and Riegl VZ400i scans, but on page 8, there are double the number of viewers.

viewtopic.php?p=101679#p101679

When you stand there wishing for a SLAM unit, remember that there are not that many SLAM units today that can cover the area that I showed with RTK and 20mm precision as with your Reigl VZ400i. Most of the current SLAM units will not have the range, the vegetation penetration, or precision of your Riegl. So be thankful that you purchased one of the fastest TLS-RTK units available today and you can capture 2 billion colored points walking down the sidewalk like we did in HNL in less than a day.
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Re: FARO ACQUIRES GEOSLAM

Post by landmeterbeuckx »

dhirota wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 2:35 am I posted this thread about a week ago, to see what discussion this might lead to about acquisitions in our industry. After about 1,000 views, so far no one has even mentioned the excellent LSF thread 9 months ago by Danilo Mammarella

viewtopic.php?t=18624&hilit=geoslam+rtk

I am still waiting to hear about precision, accuracy and target controls and how they relate to SLAM and whether this acquisition will accomplish these important parameters in our industry.
landmeterbeuckx wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:23 pm
smacl wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:04 pm

I suspect the NavVis produces a clean result through very clever data analysis and noise reduction techniques across two complimentary scan heads, I think the raw data is as noisy as many other systems.

LIDAR has a ton of redundant data, doubly so if you have two sensors, and that redundancy can be effectively exploited to eliminate many kinds of noise. Overlapping HDR images can also add further redundancy.

I don't doubt you could apply similar techniques to the BLK2Go and other units. Unfortunately, the point cloud formats we use commonly use today for SLAM typically don't include the trajectory, precise time and IMU data that can also be highly beneficial here. Many of the manufacturers are also reluctant to make this information available to 3rd parties.
Allthough i follow this slam evolution, i'm gonna stick with static scanning as i already have all the gear and as a one man shop i cannot justify buying yet another scanner to sit idle most off the time because i'm drawing or processing data.

I often stood on site wishing i had a slam unit but when back in the office i always reflect on the fact i'm also pretty fast with my Riegl so....
We have a NavVis M6 and VLX and the raw data is not as clean as the finished point cloud.

NavVis VLX uses the 2X Velodyne sensors and the four great cameras to produce the best HDR panorama images I have seen anywhere. Their ability to process this basic data along with other sensors that most people that do not own/use a NavVis system are not aware are included in their database and they have ability to improve the quality of their final point clouds that people are talking about in this thread.

Lieven:

You must have missed my last thread of the ThreadRipper Pro 3995WX since it was messed up in the initial submittal since only 27 viewers saw it discussing the merging of NavVis VLX and Riegl VZ400i scans, but on page 8, there are double the number of viewers.

viewtopic.php?p=101679#p101679

When you stand there wishing for a SLAM unit, remember that there are not that many SLAM units today that can cover the area that I showed with RTK and 20mm precision as with your Reigl VZ400i. Most of the current SLAM units will not have the range, the vegetation penetration, or precision of your Riegl. So be thankful that you purchased one of the fastest TLS-RTK units available today and you can capture 2 billion colored points walking down the sidewalk like we did in HNL in less than a day.
Hi Dennis,

You know i'm not the most knowledgable person when it comes to pc's and workstations. That's why i never interfere with your testing data as i im a noob in these fields. Test results look great of course and you have all the tools to deliver the best looking data and precise one to your client.

I have also done a few projects where i just place the Riegl on a cart and make loads of scans. Of course a Navvis will always be faster in the field an have the possibillity to look around corners to have a full pointcloud.

I mostly scan for engineering or other purposes, not just measuring for the sake of nice data and shiny images. I tend to scan in function of needed planes and lines.

I must admit scanning shops and warehouses would be nice to do with a slam scanner but as i said these instruments will be more in the box as i"m alone. If a project where like 40 units needed to be scanned, a purchase could be investigated of course.

Let's catch up at Intergeo this year!
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Re: FARO ACQUIRES GEOSLAM

Post by pburrows145 »

It's very interesting that this comes as we are seeing a HUGE spike in sales of the Leica BLK2GO... there is a market pull for mobile mapping devices, and the evolution of the algorithms that powers these devices means they are getting better and better.

The latest updates to the BLK2GO are, IMHO, incredible... the re-observation feature alone is changing the game for a lot of customers (I spoke to one yesterday and he said they have now increased their walk times from 10 mins to 30 minutes and were seeing improved results - even when cross-referencing against survey control).

And there's more to come - but I will sit on my hands... :ugeek:
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Re: FARO ACQUIRES GEOSLAM

Post by smacl »

pburrows145 wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 9:40 am It's very interesting that this comes as we are seeing a HUGE spike in sales of the Leica BLK2GO... there is a market pull for mobile mapping devices, and the evolution of the algorithms that powers these devices means they are getting better and better.

The latest updates to the BLK2GO are, IMHO, incredible... the re-observation feature alone is changing the game for a lot of customers (I spoke to one yesterday and he said they have now increased their walk times from 10 mins to 30 minutes and were seeing improved results - even when cross-referencing against survey control).

And there's more to come - but I will sit on my hands... :ugeek:
It would be worth posting some sample data to illustrate the improvements if you get a chance Paul. As per my previous post, I think the BLK2GG would be greatly improved with 3rd party access to the trajectory information, IMU data and raw photography. FWIW, NavVis have already done this for 3rd party software vendors such as ourselves in order to enable modeling in bubble views, as have Riegl for all their mobile and static scanners. I think the BLK2GO scanning hardware is far better than other handheld units out there, being a fast profiler, but really lacks the point cloud rationalization tools that make the NavVis what it is.
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