New BLK 360

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Re: New BLK 360

Post by smacl »

badam wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:47 pm well this is not a handheld device so this shouldn't be compared to those.

It should be compared to faro S,M series, previous blk series, or any other TLS device. The blk360 previous version strugled a lot close to the minimum measurment distance which is quite high already. And possibly that is used a lot because of the device agility. Like small interior rooms. And that is where the close range comes in, and also the 270 Vertical field of view which is pretty small for these.

each setup has its own color to distinguish them, but i kept it visible to be able to compare somewhat true wall position.
12mm_at_1m.png

6mm_at2m.png

This makes the data ugly and hard to register correctly, because these spaces usually already hard to register, because of low amount of overlaps. And the vertical range is not helping here.
Doubtless explains why the circle under the scanner is so large, your 12mm at 1M example suggests it should maybe be somewhat larger still ;) That said, the 12mm measured doesn't look like a normal distance between lines observed from different setups, more like a corner anomaly with possibly some registration error thrown in. Specs have it as 6mm @ 10m in highest accuracy mode and the data seems to bear that out.

I think the comparison to the likes of a handheld MMS is a fair one, not so much in terms of technology, more so that these are products aimed at the novice user with emphasis primarily on ease of use. No sure which TLS I'd be looking at in the $20k - $25k price range to compare it with.
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Re: New BLK 360

Post by badam »

smacl wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:58 pm
badam wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:47 pm well this is not a handheld device so this shouldn't be compared to those.

It should be compared to faro S,M series, previous blk series, or any other TLS device. The blk360 previous version strugled a lot close to the minimum measurment distance which is quite high already. And possibly that is used a lot because of the device agility. Like small interior rooms. And that is where the close range comes in, and also the 270 Vertical field of view which is pretty small for these.

each setup has its own color to distinguish them, but i kept it visible to be able to compare somewhat true wall position.
12mm_at_1m.png

6mm_at2m.png

This makes the data ugly and hard to register correctly, because these spaces usually already hard to register, because of low amount of overlaps. And the vertical range is not helping here.
Doubtless explains why the circle under the scanner is so large, your 12mm at 1M example suggests it should maybe be somewhat larger still ;) That said, the 12mm measured doesn't look like a normal distance between lines observed from different setups, more like a corner anomaly with possibly some registration error thrown in. Specs have it as 6mm @ 10m in highest accuracy mode and the data seems to bear that out.

I think the comparison to the likes of a handheld MMS is a fair one, not so much in terms of technology, more so that these are products aimed at the novice user with emphasis primarily on ease of use. No sure which TLS I'd be looking at in the $20k - $25k price range to compare it with.
This can be seen on straight walls also. I just didn't want to be that rude to put it out. because that might be closer then the advertised minimum range. It is not corner issue. We work with this a lot unfortinatelly. And pretty hard to get it nice especially when you register it to an RTC360 setup. You get a nice clean edge from the rtc not like the blk360.
close_range_blk_issue.png
As for what it can be compared to it is hard. maybe faro s70, faro m70 (with the panocam modul if it works?), but i don't really know other alternatives. RTC is completely other price range. Sure blk360 is small works fine for a lot of the case, but has its downsides. (I think the vertical range is the biggest issue with this new version)
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Re: New BLK 360

Post by smacl »

badam wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:21 pmThis can be seen on straight walls also. I just didn't want to be that rude to put it out. because that might be closer then the advertised minimum range. It is not corner issue. We work with this a lot unfortinatelly. And pretty hard to get it nice especially when you register it to an RTC360 setup. You get a nice clean edge from the rtc not like the blk360.
Always put this kind of information out there, that type of info is what this forum is all about and very valuable to the prospective purchaser as counterpoint to the heavy marketing. First thing I do when I see data from a new device on the market is to drill down into it and look for the strengths and weaknesses. Fair play for finding some useful stuff here, I'm so used to working without setup data that I often miss this kind of analysis.
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Re: New BLK 360

Post by landmeterbeuckx »

landmeterbeuckx wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:25 pm
badam wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:56 pm
Scott.Warren wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:50 pm Smaller, faster, and has vis.

New one has no thermal (which is fine) and a shorter range (old-60m, new 45m).

I would also like to test to see if it still has the issue with data at close range, sucks trying to explain why the door sills are warped in the data because you forgot to filter out close data.
well i found some test data.

https://shop.leica-geosystems.com/leica ... -downloads

unfortinatelly the noise and the close range issues still there. Well somehow it needs to be cheaper then an rtc360... :D another thing is that the circle below the scanner seems huge. especially for a device like this, i don't think that the rtc has this big blank circle under it. Maybe it was just clipped during import. We will need to see it for ourself.
I looked at the data but for a 20k kit i expected better data. It will always be a low-end scanner.
Idiot me. I downloaded it but looked at an older blk dataset which was still in the downloadfolder. :D

I must say this new data of the outside looks pretty good. Less noise than previous datasets. A pity i cannot look at the actual images in hdr and ldr. Only e57 bubble view which always gives a conficting image compared to the original.
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Re: New BLK 360

Post by badam »

The exterior ldr pano images can be seen in cloud compare as a cubemap. That is the "original" ldr image, which can be seen in leica environments. And that image is used to colorized the point cloud.

I don't really know why they did not give those in the interior example. Or why don't they just give an lgs for that reason.

As for improvement i don't really see huge difference in the new blk360 and old blk360 dataset, seems similar to me.

Maybe you opened a 2go, fly dataset?
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Re: New BLK 360

Post by jsteinert »

I think comparing this to a handheld is very applicable, considering the speed in field. We have battled indoor positioning without control in our handhelds, and I feel this new instrument can work great with only C2C alignment AND compete with handheld scanning time. Also, processing time would be quicker than handhelds.
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Re: New BLK 360

Post by badam »

jsteinert wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:01 pm I think comparing this to a handheld is very applicable, considering the speed in field. We have battled indoor positioning without control in our handhelds, and I feel this new instrument can work great with only C2C alignment AND compete with handheld scanning time. Also, processing time would be quicker than handhelds.
let see what they can offer, in terms of performance increasing in reg360 especially hdr imaging. Because that is pretty slow currently. i don't know if it can be faster then any handhelds. vis links are just prealignment. You will still need to work/clean everything as much as you can.

And don't forget with a tls device you can get pretty big file sizes which can give you headaches, if you don't prepare for it...

it won't be like a handheld. one setup with dense+ and hdr will be 600-800 mb. if you create 100 scan/day (this should be easy with this speed)... in 20 workday it is 1.5TB of data => 15TB a year. And this is only just raw data, there will be a same amount of register360 files, and exported e57.

But i'd rather buy this then a 2go without any second thoughts. Especially when the 2go cost 2-2.5 times more. But if you plan to pay more in the range of 60-70 grand then buy an rtc instead. way better quality and you can still scan in low res and that will be higher resolution then the dense scan with this. [email protected] hdr imagery is 1:31, without image it is 31 sec.
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Re: New BLK 360

Post by smacl »

badam wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:21 pmAs for what it can be compared to it is hard. maybe faro s70, faro m70 (with the panocam modul if it works?), but i don't really know other alternatives. RTC is completely other price range. Sure blk360 is small works fine for a lot of the case, but has its downsides. (I think the vertical range is the biggest issue with this new version)
I was thinking the same, seeing some great results from the Trimble X7 among some of my client base which also scores well on an ease of use and maintenance point of view, albeit at the $40k price point. I still think at the ~$25k with software, the new BLK360 is going to be a pretty good value proposition for those new to scanning with light to medium use requirements. Not sure I see the advantage of being smaller than the previous model, the old BLK360 was already small enough, USB C, speed and VIS seem to be the big improvements. I'd also be interested in warranty, service, repair and calibration options, particularly in the case of accidental damage.
But i'd rather buy this then a 2go without any second thoughts. Especially when the 2go cost 2-2.5 times more. But if you plan to pay more in the range of 60-70 grand then buy an rtc instead. way better quality and you can still scan in low res and that will be higher resolution then the dense scan with this. [email protected] hdr imagery is 1:31, without image it is 31 sec.
Many more handheld options than the BLK2Go out there, though they all have their problems. At the $70k bracket, I'd be far more tempted by the NavVis than the BLK2Go in terms of data quality, just watch out for those low doors! Geoslam also have a good range of product offering for a range of budgets.
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Re: New BLK 360

Post by Ioannis »

Can anyone confirm if it has VIS system like the RTC?
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Re: New BLK 360

Post by badam »

Ioannis wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:39 am Can anyone confirm if it has VIS system like the RTC?
yes it has. as every documentation and paul mentioned it in the yt video.
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