Admissibility of LiDAR in the Courts today
- LPaulCook
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Admissibility of LiDAR in the Courts today
It has been since 2013 that this subject has been discussed on this forum so I though I would bring it up again to get the current thinking on the admissibility of LiDAR, laser scanned evidence acceptability in the court systems today.
If anyone has any relative material on this subject please share them with the rest of us.
I still find lawyers that have never hear of LiDAR or laser scanned images for court use. Those are the ones that want to see something in advance of hiring us to provide such data so that they know it will be admissibility in court.
I know Mark Johnson has some white papers on this subject but I have not been able to get a response from him. He much be very busy as he is always been very generous with his materials.
What can you share with us about this subject of admissibility of laser scanned evedence in he courts today?
Thanks
If anyone has any relative material on this subject please share them with the rest of us.
I still find lawyers that have never hear of LiDAR or laser scanned images for court use. Those are the ones that want to see something in advance of hiring us to provide such data so that they know it will be admissibility in court.
I know Mark Johnson has some white papers on this subject but I have not been able to get a response from him. He much be very busy as he is always been very generous with his materials.
What can you share with us about this subject of admissibility of laser scanned evedence in he courts today?
Thanks
L. Paul Cook, PLS
www.LPC3D.com
www.LPC3D.com
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Re: Admissibility of LiDAR in the Courts today
In the UK for crime work it is no problem. Store a master copy of the raw data and seal then the integrity of what is produces can be independently checked if necessary.
This will be tightened up a bit in the next couple of years as this sort of forensic work becomes accredited and will I imagine be provided with an idea of the certainty of error. There is about to be a huge amount of validation work undertaken.
This will be tightened up a bit in the next couple of years as this sort of forensic work becomes accredited and will I imagine be provided with an idea of the certainty of error. There is about to be a huge amount of validation work undertaken.
- LPaulCook
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Re: Admissibility of LiDAR in the Courts today
Any information on this subject in the USA would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Thanks.
L. Paul Cook, PLS
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Re: Admissibility of LiDAR in the Courts today
Ideally scanner manufacturers could easily include a cryptographic certificate at the hardware level.
This could then be used to "sign" all of the outputs. Piece of cake. Could potentially even be via a "user" key - so each operator signs it as such. Or perhaps both. Hardware and user signed.
Canon had something similar about 15 years ago - you could get an EOS body that "signed" the imagery coming off it. [actually looks like ~ 10 years ago]
So once the images and scan data can be proven not to be tampered with - accuracy/calibration becomes the next thing.
[edit: link added]
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/osk/osk-e3/ ... index.html
This could then be used to "sign" all of the outputs. Piece of cake. Could potentially even be via a "user" key - so each operator signs it as such. Or perhaps both. Hardware and user signed.
Canon had something similar about 15 years ago - you could get an EOS body that "signed" the imagery coming off it. [actually looks like ~ 10 years ago]
So once the images and scan data can be proven not to be tampered with - accuracy/calibration becomes the next thing.
[edit: link added]
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/osk/osk-e3/ ... index.html
- smacl
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Re: Admissibility of LiDAR in the Courts today
Once you allow national mapping data to be used in a court case, chances are it will be LIDAR derived. I did some expert witness work on behalf of a government agency here in Ireland and couple of years back, where the base maps used in multiple volume measures were based on published Ordnance Survey (our national mapping agency) LIDAR derived DTM data. The technical people from the Ordnance Survey were also called as witnesses to describe their method of measurement and verification process, while I covered the modelling and analysis of the data and how to interpret the accuracy. We all got grilled pretty thoroughly over a number of days in what was an interesting case. In addition to signing and sealing your outputs, I'd suggest method is as important as technology, and if you're going to use LIDAR data I'd tend to back it up with an array of check measurements using one or more independent methods of measurement (e.g. total station, tape, and/oe level) as needed. You also need to be able describe everything robustly in really simple terms, juries don't take well to complex technical information.
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Re: Admissibility of LiDAR in the Courts today
This is something we recommend surveyors do with all digital data they deliver as a matter of course, including their own edited models, and something we included when writing the Dublin topo survey spec. This can be easily done in Windows using tools like Get-FileHash Printing the hash on a signed delivery note removes any scope for saying the data has been tampered with and is as much a protection for the client as the surveyor.jamesworrell wrote: ↑Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:26 am Ideally scanner manufacturers could easily include a cryptographic certificate at the hardware level.
This could then be used to "sign" all of the outputs. Piece of cake. Could potentially even be via a "user" key - so each operator signs it as such. Or perhaps both. Hardware and user signed.
Canon had something similar about 15 years ago - you could get an EOS body that "signed" the imagery coming off it. [actually looks like ~ 10 years ago]
So once the images and scan data can be proven not to be tampered with - accuracy/calibration becomes the next thing.
[edit: link added]
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/osk/osk-e3/ ... index.html
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Re: Admissibility of LiDAR in the Courts today
Paul,
Both Leica and Faro have Public Safety programs and they have a lot of information on the subject. PM me if you like and I would be happy to give you some names of those that are involved in producing court documents. I am sure if you talk Leica or Faro they can help you out.
Both Leica and Faro have Public Safety programs and they have a lot of information on the subject. PM me if you like and I would be happy to give you some names of those that are involved in producing court documents. I am sure if you talk Leica or Faro they can help you out.
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Re: Admissibility of LiDAR in the Courts today
I would also recommend the IAFSM as a good resource. Early on, we kept a list of cases where the laser scanner was used in court. This is no longer necessary as there are hundreds of cases now and "the horse is out of the barn". Laser scanning is no longer a new thing to the court systems in Europe, Canada and the US. It has also been introduced in Australia, New Zealand and other countries.
Paul,
You should think about getting over the pond to Forth Worth, TX this December as we are having an Active Shooter Scenario as part of our conference and we also have a Basic Laser Scanner Certification Course (first time being offered) where we will be covering Admissibility and court related issues of the laser scanner.
Quite a bit too much to be discussed on this topic in a single post as there are many facets.
Eugene
Paul,
You should think about getting over the pond to Forth Worth, TX this December as we are having an Active Shooter Scenario as part of our conference and we also have a Basic Laser Scanner Certification Course (first time being offered) where we will be covering Admissibility and court related issues of the laser scanner.
Quite a bit too much to be discussed on this topic in a single post as there are many facets.
Eugene
- LPaulCook
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Re: Admissibility of LiDAR in the Courts today
Thank you all for your input on this subject. It's all helpful.
Thanks Shane for pointing me to learn about "File Hash". I found a simple Windows based free software for generating the Hash code for any document or Folder. That's a great way to be sure that a backup copy of my work or a transferred copy is "exactly the same" as the original. What a great way to prove if a file is "exactly" the same as the file I sent opposing counsel or anyone later on.
This could be very helpful in any type of digital delivery of my work, not just forensic work...
Here's where I found this Hash program: https://quickhash-gui.org/download/quic ... 2-windows/
Also thanks Eugene for pointing me to IAFSM.org I am now a member!
I will sure consider attending the conference this December too.
I see that there is much on this subject in the Members Only section of the website.
Thanks Shane for pointing me to learn about "File Hash". I found a simple Windows based free software for generating the Hash code for any document or Folder. That's a great way to be sure that a backup copy of my work or a transferred copy is "exactly the same" as the original. What a great way to prove if a file is "exactly" the same as the file I sent opposing counsel or anyone later on.
This could be very helpful in any type of digital delivery of my work, not just forensic work...
Here's where I found this Hash program: https://quickhash-gui.org/download/quic ... 2-windows/
Also thanks Eugene for pointing me to IAFSM.org I am now a member!
I will sure consider attending the conference this December too.
I see that there is much on this subject in the Members Only section of the website.
L. Paul Cook, PLS
www.LPC3D.com
www.LPC3D.com
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Re: Admissibility of LiDAR in the Courts today
Hi Paul,
If you do make it over to TX, I think you will find the discussions to be enlightening and with all the different people we have attending from different parts of the planet, it makes for a lot of different perspectives and experiences.
You may want to consider the Basic Laser Scanner Certification too!
Cheers,
Eugene
If you do make it over to TX, I think you will find the discussions to be enlightening and with all the different people we have attending from different parts of the planet, it makes for a lot of different perspectives and experiences.
You may want to consider the Basic Laser Scanner Certification too!
Cheers,
Eugene