In search of our first 3D scanner

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PJBKK
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In search of our first 3D scanner

Post by PJBKK »

Hi

I am the Business Development Manager for a Thai packaging company. I have signed up to this forum in the hope of finding some real world advice about 3D scanners. No sure where to post this query so I thought best to start here. I am not an engineer and have no experience of CAD software so you will have to forgive my ignorance.

We have had a number of local agents come into the factory to demo their scanners and the only one I have been impressed by is the Faro EdgeArm Scanner. Its very fast and has no issues with dark or shiny surfaces; no need for stickers or sprays. What I am not impressed with is the time the Faro agents took to process the scan data to convert it into a CAD file we could use (for example in NX). A car hood/bonnet took 20 minutes to scan but 5 hours to process (see attached pdf) and a plastic trim for a car mirror took 10 minutes to scan and 4 hours to process. Is this what we can expect with any scan data from any scanner? Are there scanners that work more slowly but produce data that is quicker to process? I ask as we are short of engineers and we are looking to use a 3D scanner to speed up our design process and make better use of our engineers' time. It looks like we will have to employ a new engineer to just manage the scan data.

Thanks

Peter
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Re: In search of our first 3D scanner

Post by Attreyu »

Look, I'm no scanning specialist by any means (VR game designer), but the large majority of people who use laser scanners are doing it in order to obtain the point cloud, coloured or not - which can be latered measured, explored, etc.

Processing a point cloud in order to end up with a mesh, again, textured or not - is not something that's quite straightforward - Scene has a convert to mesh feature, meshlab can do poisson recontructions, reality capture does it as well, photoscan can mesh a point cloud derived from photogrammetry, etc.

Since the process is not quick because these scanners weren't designed with meshing cappabilities - you have your answer right here.

Now, there's an ever greater milestone - because you don't even expect a mesh, but a CAD file, to use it in Inventor or SolidWorks, or Catia - correct me if I'm wrong.

These files, which are usually in IGES or STEP formats - are solids. They are manifold by design and their representation is based on NURBS surfaces generated from very complex mathematical equations.

To get from a PCL or polygonal mesh to a solid is an art in itself - and very few programs deal with it nicely.

For example, Geomagic Design X or Inventor can help greatly with a mesh-to-solid conversion, but it entirely depends on the user knowledge with the software and the learning is pretty steep.

In your particular case, my recommandation would be to use something like Artec - Spider, Eva or Leo to scan your models and then aquire a Geomagic licence as well.

So I would say that 7 hours for a bonnet STEP file is not a very long time.

Also, you need to know that there is no scanner that I'm aware of that can output solid files natively - in fact 90% of them work with pointclouds (at least the laser scanners), then you have SLAM based scanners (which can be laser, time-of-flight, etc.) and of course you will always have photogrammetry.

None of them work with solids - it is generally expected that the customers will have a design guy which does the conversion to CAD.

Hope this helps, and maybe my forum colleagues would be able to correct me if I'm talking nonsense here.
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Re: In search of our first 3D scanner

Post by PJBKK »

Thank you. That all fits with our experience to date and yes we are looking to convert the data to CAD file to use in NX and Solidworks.
Interesting that you mention Artec scanners as we are delaying our decision until we see a demo of their new Leo scanner. You suggest using an Artec scanner and Geomagic Design X as a productive combination. Is there some feature of Artec scanners that make them more compatible with Design X? I ask as the company who did the Faro demo used Design X to process the Faro scan data.
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Re: In search of our first 3D scanner

Post by JSenior »

Once you have the mesh/point cloud data from any scanner the actual processing time into solids/surfaces is pretty much the same.

Depending on what you are doing with the data, you may not need to go to the level they have. You may be able to work straight from the mesh data or there is software which will allow auto-surfacing, which will automatically apply surfaces to the mesh to your parameters (there is limited control of this though and requires complete scans.)
If you are looking for a standard 'to design intent' cad model, then all the modelling should be done largely in the traditional way, just with the aid of all your measurements and profiles on the screen (which itself makes it much quicker/more accurate.)

In terms of scanners, I believe the arms are just about the most universal scanners. The Artec Leo looks very interesting but the accuracy/resolution won't be as high. It will almost certainly be quicker to scan with but won't be as universal.
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Re: In search of our first 3D scanner

Post by TommyMaddox »

That amount of time is actually pretty decent. The weakest link in the whole process is always the person turning the pointcloud into a CAD model.
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Re: In search of our first 3D scanner

Post by Attreyu »

PJBKK wrote:You suggest using an Artec scanner and Geomagic Design X as a productive combination. Is there some feature of Artec scanners that make them more compatible with Design X? I ask as the company who did the Faro demo used Design X to process the Faro scan data.
https://www.artec3d.com/3d-software/geomagic_design_x

Geomagic Design X works almost natively with the Leo and it's offered as part of a the bundle when you buy the sensor.

Or, if you're cost burdened, you can buy one of 3D Systems' own scanners - http://www.geomagic.com/en/products/sense/overview

This way you'll be sure that both Design X and the scanner are a part of the same ecosystem, like Faro Focus and Scene, for example.
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Re: In search of our first 3D scanner

Post by PJBKK »

JSenior wrote:Once you have the mesh/point cloud data from any scanner the actual processing time into solids/surfaces is pretty much the same.

Depending on what you are doing with the data, you may not need to go to the level they have. You may be able to work straight from the mesh data or there is software which will allow auto-surfacing, which will automatically apply surfaces to the mesh to your parameters (there is limited control of this though and requires complete scans.)
If you are looking for a standard 'to design intent' cad model, then all the modelling should be done largely in the traditional way, just with the aid of all your measurements and profiles on the screen (which itself makes it much quicker/more accurate.)

In terms of scanners, I believe the arms are just about the most universal scanners. The Artec Leo looks very interesting but the accuracy/resolution won't be as high. It will almost certainly be quicker to scan with but won't be as universal.
Thank you for the reply. What do you mean when you say "universal". Is it that the data from the Faro scanner can be used by the widest range of software (like Design X)?
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Re: In search of our first 3D scanner

Post by 3DForensics »

In my opinion, the types of surfaces you are looking to reverse engineer would be better with an arm type of instrument. I don't want to take anything away from the Artec scanners because they provide excellent scanners and I think their Artec Studio software is one of the best on the market.

However, with the arm, you always have the benefit that the laser line probe is connected to the arm and can produce the top and bottom sides of a thing object with a known accuracy. My experience has been that you would have to create fixtures or other means of scanning a thin surface because it is difficult to register the across the thin edge. Also, the more you scan, the great the potential for error whereas the arm does not have the problem of registration since the arm is the basis for positioning.

You also mentioned the fact that glossy surfaces do better with the blue laser on the FARO arm so it would be a good idea to test this when you get a demo of the Leo.

In terms of time for processing, I am not an expert in this area but from what I have seen through my colleagues, I think those are reasonable times and not overly excessive.

Cheers,

Eugene
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Re: In search of our first 3D scanner

Post by JSenior »

PJBKK wrote: Thank you for the reply. What do you mean when you say "universal". Is it that the data from the Faro scanner can be used by the widest range of software (like Design X)?
The Faro uses plugins so you can scan directly into a variety of programs (Geomagic, Polyworks etc.)
With Artec you have to scan into Artec Studio before exporting it.
It doesn't matter either way as you can import the data from the Artec into the same programs that the Faro scans into.

They are nice to have but depending on the end goal you may also decide you don't need extra scanning specialist software (Geomagic, Polyworks etc.) which means you'd save more by going straight from Artec Studio to your standard CAD software and doing the reverse engineering in there.


I agree with Eugene that an arm will do what you require and in umy experience it is much easier to trust the data from an arm. With older Artec scanners you would certainly struggle to get round the thin edges on your bonnet example. The Leo has it's '9 DoF inertial system' however which maybe will allow it too? It is also meant to have HDR mode so it may be as good as shiney stuff.
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Re: In search of our first 3D scanner

Post by Pat_Canada »

Hi Peter,

I've sent you a PM. I think we might be able to help both on the scanning and possibly on the data processing side depending on what it is that you want to do with the CAD file afterwards.

In any case, one of our technical guy is in Thailand Tuesday this week for a seminar so if you're interested either of us could touch base with you (I'm also in Asia this week) to answer a couple of questions, and eventually setup a demonstration (no obligations so that is why I recommend people always have this done, no matter the supplier).

Best Regards,
Patrice Parent
Territory Manager
http://www.creaform3d.com
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