RTC360 Not so great really

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stevenramsey
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Re: RTC360 Not so great really

Post by stevenramsey »

I can't find the hand in the air Smilie. Can I join in please miss can I join this gang.

Lovely to see the forum doing what it was designed for. You didn't mention that bit did you Andy
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Re: RTC360 Not so great really

Post by Matt Young »

I seem to remember that you started the gang in the first place Steve. You know back when you could count all of the gang members on fingers ;)

Once a small gang of five or ten - now tens of thousands!
If you don't see that there is nothing, then you are kidding yourself.
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Re: RTC360 Not so great really

Post by stevenramsey »

Matt Young wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:54 pm I seem to remember that you started the gang in the first place Steve. You know back when you could count all of the gang members on fingers ;)

Once a small gang of five or ten - now tens of thousands!
Oh the days of Old. Your right I guess I was one of the people that started the gang being an Idea I had for a forum for people to share ideas. It was Andy that actually wrote the original version. At that time it was a desire of ours to have this open forum but it ended up being by invite only and for only Leica UK customers. Boy what a fail that was, at that time it was a few dozen people (most still active here) who wouldn't dare give advise or workflow as everyone on the forum were basically competitors. I wish I could remember all the people in that room and thank them all for the support in pushing for what was later to become what we have now. Maybe worth a few huge thank you's. Jason and Phil who took on the mantle of making this an open and non manufacture place to be. All the moderators who put in all their time for the sheer pleasure of it.

Having enjoyed Andy's brief history of time I also started way back in 2000 with a HDS2500, Sorry Andy yours was a 2500 rather than a 2400 I seem to remeber. The HDS2500 was only different from the Cyrax2500 by name the company I worked for waited until Leica had bought the whole company. we liked the thought that just because the 2500 was hand built in sunny USA we could bang some local UK heads when things went wrong. Back then I think there were only 75 HDS2500 in the world and yes they went wrong sometimes.
Cutting your teeth on a scanner with a 40degree FOV and 1-200 pps, there was Sooooo much time to read a book. make coffee. top up your generator with fuel, I remember once we made a little table and ran a pair of scanners and a kettle but never all three at the same time. Or to put it a different way we had time to think hard about the next perfect location for the scanner. register the last scan to the live registration as Cloud to Cloud hadn't been introduced to pointclouds only for meshes in programs like polyworks.

I must have used virtually every scanner I could get my hand on. A mensi GS with Realworks. a very competent scanner with features still not really seen today (true adaptive scanning) but its battery solution so crap so I designed new ones, maybe there are some old hacks out there that remember those slender black batteries with integrated handle. BTW they weren't great either. What else we had some early Z&F scanners before there was the OEM agreement with Leica. great scanners so fast. but at the time Cyclone couldn't handle that level of data. neither could our CAD team. Data overload.
Riegls those bullet proof cylinders.
Next came a HDS3000 .
So whats the interesting point for me in that part of history is that nearly 20 years ago all scanners had to use Laptops, We were all registering in real time in the field with scanners without compensators. every job had to have a total station if you wanted it upright. (Note to self don't mention the Z axis). I can vividly remember one of the first times that someone else did a scanning job for me at the company I worked for. I was handed back a Cyclone database of the church with a registration full of errors of 0 and 1mm it was amazing, he was so chuffed until on QA'ing the data found the church had developed 5 extra spires. that was the last time he put every target at the same height in a straight line I can tell you.

Like Andy I moved away from commercial scanning and went to Leica and keeping my passion for passing on knowledge here on the forum. As you may expect there I used every scanner I could get my hands on not just Leica ones. Compensators came and went (BLK and RTC) OEM agreements came and went. HDS6*** series scanners which I had already been using from Z&F, Cyclone could now handle the data but there were so many complaints of Data overload from scanners that were by then doing 250,000 pps(can you spot a theme here) and I guess it was about that time that c2c was becoming crucial to the scanning industry, and I embraced it whole heartily (BTW I am a surveyor I know every argument for and against it)
Whilst at Leica I had the enormous privilege on being close to the development of some of the best cutting edge tech around. The MS60 P40 and RTC especially. The 4-5 years it took to take every bodies ideas and sketches on the back of fag packets to a full working scanner was a joy to watch. Seeing how the consequences of decisions can take on a life of there own. For example when the decision to have a USB port on a C10 and everyone said why wasn't it USB3 USB 3 didn't exist when the design of the hardware was locked down.

So what was next, Leaving Leica a huge multi national to move to a tiny Scanning company where I now have access to more scanning kit than most not just Lidar scanners. And what do we run yes Leica, Why? This will come down to history and loyalty, I sold this company their first scanner 10 years ago and supported them through out that time.
Is the P40 we have the best scanner in the market, possibly not, but do I know how to use it and get the best out of it, yes.
Is the RTC the best scanner in the market. Possibly not but but having been so close to its development it would have been rude not to own and run one. Do I know how to get the best out of it, Yes.

Someone recently said that the best scanner you have is the one you have with you and it is so true

So for me and taking Matt's post. was it a rant, No way, Matt doesn't rant.
Did it spark a great conversation, absolutely.
Do I agree with what was said. In part yes. File sizes are/were large but do I personally care, no.
Am I getting 500 scans a day to process, no.
Do I have the same import issue, No. everything imports just fine.
Are the RTC scans leveled to gravity, No. Do I care, Not anymore and when I do care I get out the P40 (or any other scanner that understands gravity to a level of accuracy needed to achieve my clients deliverables) as I understand what each scanners strengths are.

So what have I forgotten. Topcon, Just have never had a chance to use the kit in anger, Sorry Andy. The data always looked absolutely fine and the workflow firmly in Survey, Faro similar story just never got a chance to use them in anger. and now too stuck in the mud to open my eyes to options. Are any of the scanners made by these manufactures, Or Z&F or Teleydyne or Stonex or Riegl etc etc the best scanner on the market, Possibly.

If anyone comes and shows me the perfect scanner I will have so much fun explaining in great detail to the sales person why it isn't. Bring it on.

So whats the future. God knows. Smaller, Larger, faster, Slower, cheaper, longer range, shorter range, more accurate, more Precise (someone will be giggling at that one), HDR, Non HDR, RGB lasers so no need for a Camera, A built in camera, A modular camera, Thermal, Xray, fits in a pocket, fits on a tripod, can be used without a tripod (BLK2GO is that the perfect scanner) hangs off a drone, Has a tribrach, Doesn't have a tribrach, Has a telescopic for measuring to prisms(got to keep those dame surveyors happy), Batteries that last all week (and charge themselves from the solar panels), Drives itself to site and does the job for you, and has a Huge Button on the side with "client deliverable" printed on it, when you press that it sends the client what they think they want rather than what they asked for. Oh and it will have USB 5 and network cable and an internal HD for auto backups which streams it to the cloud via 6G (5G wont work hehe), can be controlled via tablet, Laptop, Hand gestures, phone, wifi or cable (Matt I haven't forgoten you). And electrifies anyone that trys to steal it after it has called the police for you. I'm sure I have forgotten something but I think that covers everything.

Untill then the best scanner in the world is the one I have with me as long as it is fit for purpose.
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Re: RTC360 Not so great really

Post by Scott »

:like: :like: :like: Terrific post Steven!
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Re: RTC360 Not so great really

Post by jamesworrell »

+1 for x-ray!!

C'mon manufacturers, lift your game already! I hate ceiling spaces.

And yes, to quote myself from HxGN, ".. there is no perfect scanner and the RTC is no unicorn."
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Re: RTC360 Not so great really

Post by stutosney »

What a great discussion post and Steve, great reading about your history of scanners. I vividly remember my first ever scanning job, connecting the multiple wires, power supplies and lap top, before setting it off t scan the windmill. It took so long for each scan and the weather was so nice, I could have a lie down and contemplate life between scans! I think one thing that is certain, is that the technology will continue to advance year on year and, as a surveyor myself, we will be spending less time on site and more in the office, processing data. Another thing I think we can all agree on, is that this forum is a hub of information that I have been using for several years (had to change accounts) and massively appreciate and it has certainly helped me out.
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Re: RTC360 Not so great really

Post by Oatfedgoat »

stevenramsey wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:39 pm

So whats the future. God knows. Smaller, Larger, faster, Slower, cheaper, longer range, shorter range, more accurate, more Precise (someone will be giggling at that one), HDR, Non HDR, RGB lasers so no need for a Camera, A built in camera, A modular camera, Thermal, Xray, fits in a pocket, fits on a tripod, can be used without a tripod (BLK2GO is that the perfect scanner) hangs off a drone, Has a tribrach, Doesn't have a tribrach, Has a telescopic for measuring to prisms(got to keep those dame surveyors happy), Batteries that last all week (and charge themselves from the solar panels), Drives itself to site and does the job for you, and has a Huge Button on the side with "client deliverable" printed on it, when you press that it sends the client what they think they want rather than what they asked for. Oh and it will have USB 5 and network cable and an internal HD for auto backups which streams it to the cloud via 6G (5G wont work hehe), can be controlled via tablet, Laptop, Hand gestures, phone, wifi or cable (Matt I haven't forgoten you). And electrifies anyone that trys to steal it after it has called the police for you. I'm sure I have forgotten something but I think that covers everything.

Untill then the best scanner in the world is the one I have with me as long as it is fit for purpose.
Post of the year (decade?). What an excellent Friday morning read Steve.

The highlighted made me smile :)
I think you missed another button for when the client changes their mind after they have already instructed you with their requirements.

One thing I have learnt since joining a contractor is that survey companies are far too accommodating when it comes a client asking for something different to the original spec. It's a contract that has been entered into where the survey company produces XX based upon what the client put in their specification.
When a client decides that after you deliver XX they actually need a bit more detail from your scans because you already told them that the point cloud has all the data survey companies all too frequently bow yield and do this at time and cost to themselves.

It is a a contract entered into to deliver to a specification or requirement agreed. Any deviation from that then survey companies are fully in their rights to ask for an increase in fee as a it a change.
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Re: RTC360 Not so great really

Post by JD Rogers »

Long time lurker, first time poster. Hello to all the names I recognise, I hope you're all keeping well.

I got onto this post, as we've gone down the RTC360 route here at Bath Council, and its been working out mostly fine. That comes with the caveat that I'm not using it in the way I was when I worked commercially.

We had to choose one scanner for a very diverse range of survey scope/site condition, and the RTC fit the budget we had to work to.

Our estate in Bath is huge - 1200 properties which breaks down into c. 3000 buildings. A lot of this is historic stock, and we have hundreds of listed buildings. These are often complex structures with modern, Victorian, Georgian and in some cases Medieval & Roman phases. At present we're not scanning to produce CAD plans or BIM. We're scanning from a maintenance perspective trying to understand how everything fits together. In some places we have up to 3 layers of subterranean architecture.

So to get a scanner underground in cramped spaces, scan through to street level and up into roofs the RTC is a dream to work with onsite. The Field registration is great and the vis is handy for a smooth workflow.

For me then to sit down with a PM/maintenance engineer and go through Cyclone/Jetstream to understand the building it all works great.

Where we have been coming a bit unstuck is on the larger databases, and many of Matt's comments in the first post are exactly what we've been experiencing.

I'm going to hold fire for the moment though as I've just noticed that Cyclone 9.4 and V2 of the firmware have been released whilst I was on paternity leave.

I'll get all that installed and see how much that changes things... I'll be back.
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Re: RTC360 Not so great really

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stevenramsey wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:39 pm
So whats the future. God knows. Smaller, Larger, faster, Slower, cheaper, longer range, shorter range, more accurate, more Precise (someone will be giggling at that one), HDR, Non HDR, RGB lasers so no need for a Camera, A built in camera, A modular camera, Thermal, Xray, fits in a pocket, fits on a tripod, can be used without a tripod (BLK2GO is that the perfect scanner) hangs off a drone, Has a tribrach, Doesn't have a tribrach, Has a telescopic for measuring to prisms(got to keep those dame surveyors happy), Batteries that last all week (and charge themselves from the solar panels), Drives itself to site and does the job for you, and has a Huge Button on the side with "client deliverable" printed on it, when you press that it sends the client what they think they want rather than what they asked for. Oh and it will have USB 5 and network cable and an internal HD for auto backups which streams it to the cloud via 6G (5G wont work hehe), can be controlled via tablet, Laptop, Hand gestures, phone, wifi or cable (Matt I haven't forgoten you). And electrifies anyone that trys to steal it after it has called the police for you. I'm sure I have forgotten something but I think that covers everything.

Untill then the best scanner in the world is the one I have with me as long as it is fit for purpose.
Steve, You're a poet and you know it!
Well said. A post worthy of reading! :like: :D
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Re: RTC360 Not so great really

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So whats the future. God knows. Smaller, Larger, faster, Slower, cheaper, longer range, shorter range, more accurate, more Precise (someone will be giggling at that one), HDR, Non HDR, RGB lasers so no need for a Camera, A built in camera, A modular camera, Thermal, Xray, fits in a pocket, fits on a tripod, can be used without a tripod (BLK2GO is that the perfect scanner) hangs off a drone, Has a tribrach, Doesn't have a tribrach, Has a telescopic for measuring to prisms(got to keep those dame surveyors happy), Batteries that last all week (and charge themselves from the solar panels), Drives itself to site and does the job for you, and has a Huge Button on the side with "client deliverable" printed on it, when you press that it sends the client what they think they want rather than what they asked for. Oh and it will have USB 5 and network cable and an internal HD for auto backups which streams it to the cloud via 6G (5G wont work hehe), can be controlled via tablet, Laptop, Hand gestures, phone, wifi or cable (Matt I haven't forgoten you). And electrifies anyone that trys to steal it after it has called the police for you. I'm sure I have forgotten something but I think that covers everything.

Untill then the best scanner in the world is the one I have with me as long as it is fit for purpose.
Great post Steve! You covered most, and most is always changing. It was the reason I was excited working with Leica , when they were morphing from Wild in the mid 90's to going public in 2000. The hand wrenching over "mint-green" and 'bold-red" new colors, the purchase of Cyrax out from under Trimble and the Silicon Germanium chips for RTK. Our measuring technology is moving faster than I can keep up (and actually produce work) , but I'm slowing down a bit too at 57.
Without this forum we would be lost, having jumped on the scanning band-wagon 3 years ago after tracking it from it's infancy.
Something was said about the power of the back-end infrastructure/Network/Computers to handle the current field-data streams coming in and processing required. In a government situation like ours you have to separate yourself out like a special needs group (which we are!), put yourself on the cutting edge of technology (because a top tier local County government is ALWAYS competing--with other Counties and the departments and divisions are always competing for the money pots to accomplish their particular public projects).
Most IT stuff is mass-specced by an unknowing group of IT specialists not associated with or familiar with your work requirements or workflow. When you can provide the wow factor for them, (or the one that holds the purse strings) they usually jump on board. We're still into that ongoing process, but it has spurred several of our main consultants to venture into the scanning field also, with us all having the benefit of all you guys who were there from the beginning at the "bug-on-the-windshield" level.
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